22:03:32 <robla> #startmeeting WikiDev '16 Agenda Bashing
22:03:32 <wm-labs-meetbot> Meeting started Wed Dec 16 22:03:32 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is robla. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:03:32 <wm-labs-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
22:03:32 <wm-labs-meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'wikidev__16_agenda_bashing'
22:04:00 <TimStarling> now you can do #topic to restore it (assuming you have the old topic in your clipboard)
22:04:30 <robla> #topic WikiDev '16 Agenda Bashing <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E121>
22:04:57 <robla> hi folks!
22:05:04 <qgil> Hi!
22:05:20 <TimStarling> #topic WikiDev '16 Agenda Bashing <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E121> | Wikimedia meetings channel | Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
22:05:30 <legoktm> o/
22:05:34 <TimStarling> well, like that, except I'm not a chair so it doesn't work for me
22:05:40 <robla> TimStarling: ah...that's what you mean .... k
22:05:44 <TimStarling> that way you still have the "DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE" bit
22:05:48 <robla> #topic WikiDev '16 Agenda Bashing <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E121> | Wikimedia meetings channel | Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
22:07:16 <robla> So...the thing we plan to discuss is the schedule
22:07:23 * robla digs up link to *that*
22:07:55 <robla> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016#Monday.2C_January_4
22:08:48 <robla> qgil and I spent some time getting the big room (Robertson 1, 200 seat theater) scheduled in broad terms
22:08:57 <SMalyshev> there are 3 rooms for unconference - is it planned to stay that way?
22:09:02 <robla> SMalyshev: yup
22:10:21 <robla> the main thing that ArchCom just discussed in the sooper seekrit meeting was the order of the first day, which I clumsily reflected on the wiki as of 15 minutes ago
22:11:41 <robla> "Next Generation Content Loading and Routing" is now the first big room topic.  It was basically the most important thing in many of the area discussions
22:12:27 <robla> the reason why we moved that one to 10am was because the area owners wanted to be able to follow that, rather than have their stuff lead up to that
22:12:34 <robla> does that make sense to everyone?
22:12:59 <qgil> +1 , more chances for spin-offs
22:13:28 <legoktm> It seems a little backwards that we are going to discuss the brand new things we want to do first, and then later discuss about how we can't get things done (i.e. code review sucks, support for non-WMF installs, refactoring, etc.)
22:13:47 <SMalyshev> so the model is big talk early, then option to continue discussion in unconf rooms?
22:14:44 <robla> legoktm: that's a fair point
22:15:08 <robla> SMalyshev: yeah, that seemed to be the consensus of the folks that were here.
22:15:51 <robla> gwicke, TimStarling , Krinkle: your thoughts?
22:16:01 * Krinkle catches up with scrollback
22:16:17 <legoktm> Based on what I saw last year, I don't think any "future grand plan" will be able to move forward or have support until we determine exactly what "MediaWiki" is (pure-PHP thing you can install anywhere???) and what we're developing for
22:18:08 <TimStarling> legoktm: you're saying you'd like to have the non-WMF session earlier?
22:18:10 <Krinkle> I think MediaWiki as a product will remain to be a pure-PHP thing you can install anywhere for a minimal wiki/core experience. But for scalability some parts will accessed through a VRS interface in PHP with which it has a strict API contract. Which larger installs can swap for separate services which may or may not be in PHP.
22:18:19 <TimStarling> i.e. T113210
22:18:26 <dr0ptp4kt_> one of the questions in the content loading thing is indeed about that
22:18:34 <dr0ptp4kt_> but not as its sole focus
22:18:49 <legoktm> TimStarling: yes
22:19:07 <robla> legoktm: yeah, gwicke I think was also arguing for putting T113210 on the first day too
22:19:26 <SMalyshev> legoktm: then I think the governance should be befoe that: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89907 otherwise what is "determine"?
22:19:36 <robla> I wasn't willing to make that move in the ArchCom meeting because we'd scrambled enough there ;-)
22:20:24 <legoktm> SMalyshev: I think they're all interlinked together
22:20:54 <legoktm> on phabricator I said: "T113210: How should the WMF support non-technical mediawiki installs?/T89907: Discuss and approve a MediaWiki developer community governance model/T114419: Make code review not suck - I see all of these as related, because the WMF destroyed the developer community around MediaWiki, the future of MW is in the hands of the WMF. If there was an actual community, it really wouldn't be up to the WMF"
22:21:42 <legoktm> Krinkle: I'm not sure everyone would agree with you on that.
22:22:30 <TimStarling> T89907 doesn't have an agenda or concrete discussion or anything
22:23:12 <TimStarling> we obviously have a governance model, it's easy enough to write it down if you're motivated enough, but that's not a really interesting task for a room full of people
22:23:38 <TimStarling> if there is a specific change proposal to discuss, then that is a more interesting task, but there isn't, as far as I can see
22:23:59 <subbu> I am +1 about T113210 being done earlier than later.
22:24:17 <SMalyshev> TimStarling: I think the task is not writing it, the task is agreeing on it and making sure everybody (within reasonable bounds) is on board with it. So if that governance decides Mediawiki should always run on PHP only that's a decision
22:24:33 <robla> TimStarling: I agree.  I feel like it's my job to facilitate improvement of the governance model, but I'm not sure if flailing at it in a Dev Summit conversation will be effective
22:24:51 <SMalyshev> and not just somebody said something, somebody else said the opposite, let's go round in circles
22:24:56 <qgil> SMalyshev, if you read the comments at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89907, the fact is that there hasn't been energy to push it, and I don't think much will happen at this point.
22:25:27 <robla> My apologies for cookie licking T89907
22:25:35 <legoktm> qgil: I think it's just been cookie licked too much
22:25:37 * robla unassigns it from himself
22:27:06 <qgil> Whatever the reasons (brion tried before, didn't progress either) I don't think it is ripe for the Summit -- and I'm personally not haopy about this situation, biut it is what we have.
22:27:30 <SMalyshev> ok then
22:27:39 <qgil> Should we move this discussionto the task (which welcomes feedback for sure)?
22:27:40 <legoktm> I agree, and unless the situation changes dramatically, we should focus on T113210
22:27:52 <robla> #info RobLa unassigned T89907 from himself
22:28:42 <dr0ptp4kt_> i feel like t113210 is a natural follow on from the next gen content loading and routing one
22:28:49 <robla> #link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113210 legoktm would like to discuss this
22:29:32 <qgil> While I get legoktm 's point, I also think that starting with MediaWiki for third parties is kind of artificial
22:29:34 <SMalyshev> legoktm: I feel like T113210 requires some prep work - i.e. forming something like "a list of must have features of Mediawiki" impromptu on the meeting may be hard
22:29:56 <robla> gilles: you around?
22:30:03 <qgil> gilles is driving lots of prep work on T113210!
22:30:16 <legoktm> SMalyshev: those lists already exist though?
22:30:24 <qgil> In fact it is probably the task that is doing more prep work for the Summit
22:30:26 <legoktm> qgil: why is it artificial?
22:30:27 <gilles> robla: yes, but I haven't followed the discussion so far
22:31:10 <SMalyshev> legoktm: I haven't read through all discussion so maybe they are but then they should be linked right there in the description
22:31:10 <robla> gilles: there was just a claim made that there's some prep work for T113210 needed
22:31:27 <bd808> qgil: If we don't make some public and community decisions about non-WMF use of MediaWiki then we are just going to keep stalemating around some people pushing for SOA and others pushing for LAMP only
22:31:28 <SMalyshev> so people could read through and prepare their lists
22:31:54 <dr0ptp4kt_> what bd808 said
22:31:58 <gilles> robla: yes, 2 hours of irc office hour next monday to sort out that topic some more
22:32:22 <robla> gilles: xlnt!
22:32:27 <legoktm> SMalyshev: ah, you mean like people preparing their "Grade A"-type lists?
22:33:27 <SMalyshev> legoktm: yup and their lists of problems
22:34:03 * gwicke catches up on backlog
22:34:44 <robla> gilles: I know this is _yet_ another thing, but we should probably get T113210#1877356 info put in a separate Phab event (like E121)
22:35:23 <robla> #action robla to work with gilles on Phab events for Monday meetings described at T113210#1877356
22:35:24 <qgil> legoktm, bd808 those decisions are probably different when moved by the heart or by budget allocation, as we are seeing. But I don't have better answers, and at the end we are discussing whether that session should be scheduled right after the keynote, or at which later point.
22:36:43 <robla> we have this whole space-time continuum thing to deal with  ;-)
22:36:49 <quiddity> legoktm, or even just including the existing lists, in the task description.  (e.g. I think these are relevant? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Stakeholders'_Group/Tasks/Feature_wishlist and https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Usage_Report_2015)
22:38:34 <robla> alright....so, I think we have T113210 discussions scheduled.  I think Quim and I _may_ reschedule T113210 based on those conversations.  does that work?
22:39:16 <qgil> What about dr0ptp4kt_ proposal,
22:39:38 <qgil> moving MediaWiki for third parties to the slot currently taken by UI presentation?
22:39:58 * robla looks
22:40:07 <qgil> It is not that critical to have the UI presentation session before or after lunch, right?
22:40:09 <gwicke> I personally think that this would break the flow of the frontend / content structure sessions
22:41:04 <gwicke> as I said earlier in the archcom meeting, I would expect the third party support discussion to be stimulating, so having it as the last session might provide a good launching point for discussions over dinner
22:42:01 <qgil> Instead of content access & APIs?
22:42:02 <gwicke> my proposal would be to swap third party support & content access / apis
22:42:09 <qgil> wfm
22:42:17 <qgil> we need to move forward  :)
22:42:38 * robla looks at what that looks like
22:44:23 <robla> ok, I _think_ that works
22:45:00 <robla> #agree gwicke> my proposal would be to swap third party support & content access / apis
22:45:52 <gwicke> so, to clarify, this puts third party support last on Monday, and content access  / APIs mid-day Tuesday
22:46:54 <robla> yeah, I think so.  per my ArchCom discussion, I wasn't happy to do that last hour, but I'm happy to do it this hour now that qgil is here to agree  :-)
22:47:54 <gwicke> gilles: does that work for you, too?
22:48:13 <gilles> sure thing
22:49:01 <robla> any objections?
22:49:05 <robla> going once...
22:49:08 <robla> twice...
22:49:13 <robla> #agree confirming gilles, quim, and robla agree, and no objections
22:50:24 <robla> I guess one other thing qgil and I need to work out is _how_ we talk about this stuff on Phab.  I suspect we'll be setting up lots of Phab event tickets for sessions that we'll move around
22:50:30 <robla> maybe
22:51:07 <robla> We just need to make sure that we can have conversations about event logistics that don't get conflated with strategic/technical  stuff
22:52:12 <robla> are there any other big schedule items we should try to resolve now, or should we take this to another channel to continue ad hoc conversation for those that care?
22:52:13 <qgil> Now that the big room looks more or less decided, I think we need to start scheduling sessions in rob 2 and 3, letting people change to another slot if they think fits better.
22:53:09 <qgil> The list of must-have is more or less clear
22:53:29 <qgil> the specific slot is secondary and robla and I don't need to be the ones having the fi nal say.
22:54:15 <robla> #link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T119593 must have sessions
22:56:01 <robla> I think I'm just about ready to call the official part of this meeting over, especially because I'm probably going to get kicked out of the room I'm in
22:56:22 <robla> #info conversation can/should continue in #wikimedia-tech
22:56:47 <robla> anything else we should discuss officially?
22:57:20 <robla> going once....
22:57:24 <robla> twice....
22:57:40 <robla> thank you everyone!
22:58:00 <robla> #endmeeting